A federal judge says the Trump administration may have “acted in bad faith” by trying to rush Venezuelan migrants out of the country before a court could step in to block their deportations to El Salvador.
There’s not a goal post being moved. I’m describing now where the line has always been for a constitutional crisis: a judicial contempt order that gets disregarded by the executive branch. And the path to that is basically:
The executive branch does something illegal.
Someone sues in court.
The court rules that action to be illegal.
The executive branch doesn’t obey the court order.
The court orders the executive branch to show cause why contempt should not issue.
The court finds the executive branch officials to be in contempt and orders sanctions (aka a punishment).
The executive branch disregards that punishment and refuses to enforce it or obey it.
Steps 1 through 3 are pretty routine, and happen all the time.
And there are off ramps that avoid that constitutional crisis. Maybe it’s a case where the court’s ruling gets overruled on appeal. Maybe the court finds that it doesn’t have jurisdiction to rule on that issue. Maybe the executive branch backs down. One of those has happened so far in all of the cases that have ended.
It’s the cases that are still active where things might go off the rails. This particular Salvadorean deportation case has made it further than any other (past the fifth step I described above) and is the one where DOJ has suspended its own lawyer for admitting that he didn’t have the answers the judge was looking for. In a closely related case, DOJ has suspended its own lawyer for admitting personal frustration with his client (that is, ICE/DHS). These are concerning and worth pushing back on at every turn, and to sound the alarms when that line is actually crossed.
This defeatist attitude, that Trump has already won and is unaccountable, is counterproductive. We’re still busy fighting, and we can still win because we haven’t lost yet.
Ok, sorry I only replied a single line yesterday (trying a new android keyb and I am too slow). I did not mean to dismiss your thoughtful replies with a one liner.
Now, you know about this more if you are indeed a lawyer but I do not buy the idea that Trump and co are trying to be careful to not to cross the line into illegality. I mean, they have publicly called for judges to be removed
If any regular folk had pulled 1/2 of what trump has done, we would have had those contempt charges coming like a bullet. I mean, they are claiming national security for not answering questions about the kidnapped Venezuelans yet they broadcasted the entire saga as a super bowl commercial online and on tv
Sure, I get if the “good side” were to be as cavalier with the law as trump is, the entire thing falls apart even faster. But I have no doubt in my mind the “rule of law” in the USA is over. For decades, the law applies to you in reverse proportion to your wealth, the richer you are the less the law applies. The bottom has now fallen off and SCOTUS basically declared trump a king while in office.
I am willing to bet my bottom dollar these judges “considering” contempt charges will ever drop them or, if they do, trump would ignore with no consequence.
I mean you have examples like this which seem to be pretty clear cut… when should we expect to see actual consequences?
Sure, I get if the “good side” were to be as cavalier with the law as trump is, the entire thing falls apart even faster. But I have no doubt in my mind the “rule of law” in the USA is over.
I’m not willing to make that call, yet. It’s on life support, with the doctor in charge coyly hinting at whether he’s going to finish it off himself, but it hasn’t happened yet.
And in this case, the Supreme Court bailed out the President. They went ahead and said all 9 justices disagree on whether the courts have the power to review this dispute (rejecting the most extreme and most unaccountable theory of executive power), but said that the proper forum is in Texas, not in DC. So this DC judge who was weighing contempt was stripped of jurisdiction to do so.
That’s not a constitutional crisis, which is what I’m very concerned about being that uncrossable line, but it is still separately a bad result.
These are nuanced distinctions, and I don’t want to make it seem like I’m only watching out for a constitutional crisis and ignoring all the other ways that Trump is hurting the rule of law, but I think that violating court orders is a special kind of harm that needs to be viewed as its own especially dangerous thing.
I’m Canadian but as you know, the world is getting splashed by the open blender the USA is right now… for all our sake, I am wishing hard you are right and I am wrong.
you’ll continue to move the goal post holding to the hope the law will prevail
There’s not a goal post being moved. I’m describing now where the line has always been for a constitutional crisis: a judicial contempt order that gets disregarded by the executive branch. And the path to that is basically:
Steps 1 through 3 are pretty routine, and happen all the time.
And there are off ramps that avoid that constitutional crisis. Maybe it’s a case where the court’s ruling gets overruled on appeal. Maybe the court finds that it doesn’t have jurisdiction to rule on that issue. Maybe the executive branch backs down. One of those has happened so far in all of the cases that have ended.
It’s the cases that are still active where things might go off the rails. This particular Salvadorean deportation case has made it further than any other (past the fifth step I described above)
and is the one where DOJ has suspended its own lawyer for admitting that he didn’t have the answers the judge was looking for.In a closely related case, DOJ has suspended its own lawyer for admitting personal frustration with his client (that is, ICE/DHS). These are concerning and worth pushing back on at every turn, and to sound the alarms when that line is actually crossed.This defeatist attitude, that Trump has already won and is unaccountable, is counterproductive. We’re still busy fighting, and we can still win because we haven’t lost yet.
Ok, sorry I only replied a single line yesterday (trying a new android keyb and I am too slow). I did not mean to dismiss your thoughtful replies with a one liner.
Now, you know about this more if you are indeed a lawyer but I do not buy the idea that Trump and co are trying to be careful to not to cross the line into illegality. I mean, they have publicly called for judges to be removed
If any regular folk had pulled 1/2 of what trump has done, we would have had those contempt charges coming like a bullet. I mean, they are claiming national security for not answering questions about the kidnapped Venezuelans yet they broadcasted the entire saga as a super bowl commercial online and on tv
Sure, I get if the “good side” were to be as cavalier with the law as trump is, the entire thing falls apart even faster. But I have no doubt in my mind the “rule of law” in the USA is over. For decades, the law applies to you in reverse proportion to your wealth, the richer you are the less the law applies. The bottom has now fallen off and SCOTUS basically declared trump a king while in office.
I am willing to bet my bottom dollar these judges “considering” contempt charges will ever drop them or, if they do, trump would ignore with no consequence.
I mean you have examples like this which seem to be pretty clear cut… when should we expect to see actual consequences?
https://www.courthousenews.com/trump-slammed-for-covertly-withholding-fema-funds-from-blue-states/
I’m not willing to make that call, yet. It’s on life support, with the doctor in charge coyly hinting at whether he’s going to finish it off himself, but it hasn’t happened yet.
And in this case, the Supreme Court bailed out the President. They went ahead and said all 9 justices disagree on whether the courts have the power to review this dispute (rejecting the most extreme and most unaccountable theory of executive power), but said that the proper forum is in Texas, not in DC. So this DC judge who was weighing contempt was stripped of jurisdiction to do so.
That’s not a constitutional crisis, which is what I’m very concerned about being that uncrossable line, but it is still separately a bad result.
These are nuanced distinctions, and I don’t want to make it seem like I’m only watching out for a constitutional crisis and ignoring all the other ways that Trump is hurting the rule of law, but I think that violating court orders is a special kind of harm that needs to be viewed as its own especially dangerous thing.
I’m Canadian but as you know, the world is getting splashed by the open blender the USA is right now… for all our sake, I am wishing hard you are right and I am wrong.