Did your back hurt picking so many cherries and building so many strawmen? Because I also distinctly remember leftists saying “at this rate Biden (later Harris) is going to fucking lose and we’ll all regret it”, which… uh… yeah. I’m not going to engage further because I don’t have a horse in this race and I can feel my braincells dying by the second, but goddamn have you tried reflecting on why you lost for once?

Edit: I returned to the start of the thread and in the first goddamn place what the hell do leftists have to do with this conversation? You brought them up only to soliloquy about those damn leftists who practiced wrongthink. Why is your reaction for people pointing out your approach was flawed to say “no u”?

Yes, two choices: to resist, or to not resist. You could’ve admittedly defeat after actually doing something, but with how things actually went down? I’m perfectly willing to say that Trump is America’s just desserts.

Sigh fucking BlueMAGA. When Trump destroys all US democracy, don’t say you weren’t warned.

Leftists’ weakness in modern America is a matter of numbers and organization; it’s a situational weakness. In contrast, liberals’ weakness to fascism is a categorical weakness. No matter what you do, liberals are categorically incapable of beating fascism. Therefore pushing for unity behind liberals is a fool’s errand, as this election has shown.

If anything, leftists are busier driving the horizontal hostility that poisons worker solidarity and benefits fascists.

Horizonal hostility between who and who? Hatred of the Democratic elites is nothing but horizontal I’ll tell you that.

Edited.

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Should I put on party music or wait?

Again, the only two choices were: donvict or Kamala. That’s it. Nothing else. Best option was to vote Democratic all down the ticket then do everything possible to lean on Democrats to stop supporting Israel.

No. You could’ve leaned on the Democrats to stop supporting Israel before voting, while they still needed you. Leaning on them after the election would’ve had absolutely no effect and you know it. Relinquishing your right to act during the only time where you have a chance of success is indistinguishable from inaction, hence Americans chose not to oppose genocide.

Being ineffectual is helping the fascists; that’s the whole goddamn problem here. When you’re fighting fascists the battlefield isn’t the polls; it’s the hearts and minds of disillusioned workers, and liberals are too weak to win that battle against fascism no matter how much you try to unite behind them.

Isn’t the current time line the result of that success, when it came to telling people to not vote as a form of protest anyway.

No. A success there would be for significant numbers of Democrat voters to form a united nationwide and loudly declare that they’re not voting blue until XYZ (not necessarily only Gaza-related) demands are met. People just quietly not voting is the worst possible scenario, as it gives anti-fascist/anti-fascism-if-it-affects-me forces the illusion of victory only to hand fascists power.

And if you sympathize with people in October who said “it’s too late,” what’s the difference between that and “it’s too late, we can’t do anything (right now)?” I think those two groups are the same people in a way.

The difference is that they could have done things then and simply chose not to because they didn’t want to rock the boat. Also I’m sympathizing with positions here, not with people. If person A said “nope, can’t do shit now” in August and also October then I have no sympathy for them even if I agree with them to an extent in the latter case.

Huh? I don’t exactly have a PhD on this stuff but AFAIK you have to want to get rid of private property before you can claim to be socialist. Social security is just an addon to make capitalism more bearable.

Also, what option did I eliminate? You’re acting like election day was the only time people tried anything.

No I’m not; quite the opposite in fact. Some people did try something, but they were met with either inaction, ridicule or straight up derision. Again, my problem isn’t with the people who said “it’s too late” in October; I can sympathize with that view. My problem is for the people who kept saying some combination of “it’s too late we can’t do anything” and “lalala I can’t hear you” when it was, in fact, not too late. Opposition to the Gaza genocide is almost as old as the genocide itself, and the Uncommitted/Listen to Michigan Movement got going before the Michigan primary in February. My problem with Americans is that, faced with this golden opportunity to catch the Democrats by the balls and demand real change, the best they could do was “hold your nose and vote for her”. An anti-fascist movement that doesn’t have it in it to effectively object to genocide isn’t an anti-fascist movement; it’s an anti-fascism-if-it-affects-me movement. For scale, the Spanish planned an honest to goodness general strike when their government didn’t go as far as they wanted in its opposition to Israel.

They’re not pro-Trump, but the base of inequality, arrogance and hate necessary for fascism to take hold was co-produced by the Democrats. You support that and you’re pro-fascism whether you like it or not.

Like it or not, in the US the liberals were the primary opposition to fascists.

And they were ineffectual opposition that did more to help fascism than hurt it.

As Hamas is an insurgency working inside Israeli-occupied territory, Israel does not in fact have the right to defend itself in this case. They only have the right to engage in counterinsurgency efforts after guaranteeing the rights of all occupied people under international law.

There is even a comment saying this is our punishment for funding genocide. Families that are being broken apart, rights stripped away, growing tensions with literally everyone, and a fucking DOGE department, that’s our punishment for trying to not make things not as terrible as they could be.

I’m the punishment guy. First of all you ignored the latter half of my comment, where I said that this contradiction between civil rights at home and genocide abroad was only going to result in Trump. You can want things to happen all you want, but it was never going to work in reality. Second, yes, exactly. It’s your punishment for eliminating the option where you oppose genocide out of hand when you had a whole year to change course. I can barely accept saying “it’s too late to change things now so vote blue” in October, but “hold your nose and vote for her” in August, or—even worse—“Biden can’t step down now” in February? Calling anri-genocde critics of the party MAGA or Russian trolls? Fucking unforgivable. I have seen the way Arabs opposing the genocide of their friends and family were talked about here, and the “leopards ate my face” comments on every article about the death of a Palestinian. Not every American is directly responsible, don’t get me wrong, but with a crime as big as the merciless murder of at least a quarter million people almost every American is one way or another within the radius of moral culpability.

Tl;DR: Didn’t want MAGA Hitler? Then you should’ve opposed the damn genocide.

You the People of America had a year-long referendum on the subject.

LOL, you think most Americans, let alone most Democrats, support funding genocide abroad?

Not enthusiastic support, but “Let’s wait for Later™ before we do anything about this” is also support. The resulting anti-dissent defensive herd mentality is proof of that. You’ll probably defend that as “strategic voting” or “picking your battles” or whatever, but nothing less than a resolute “No” is acceptable as a response to genocide.

No one deserves a shitstain like donvict ruining the country and working to make the entire world worse.

Really? Because I can think of a few names. And in the first place things are only getting worse for the first world; the destruction of the American-European imperial alliance will be met with celebration over here, but let’s not lose sight of the point. Keeping your civil rights without opposing genocide was a losing proposition from the very start, and no amount or “hold your nose and vote for her” will change that.

If you stick with that system that enables and promotes greed, you can then regulate it (rather than make greed illegal and then be surprised that it’s not working). We’d need to actually see socialism somewhere before we can judge which approach is better (both will eventually be consumed by capital), but socialism does have serious persistence issues that need to be considered.

Another item on the (very small) list of good things Trump did.

I guess you’ll have to wait for the recession to see that you very much do.