JUST because he’s black?
He would be harshly investigated by internal affairs and severely punished with a 30-day paid suspension. Not saying it’s like that everywhere, but it seems to happen like that an awful lot :-(

Yeah I’m also struggling to see the logic in this.
The dude is already sort of a folk hero. If you kill him you will absolutely be creating a martyr. It’s going to be one of those things that might not make a big impact right away, but the worse shit gets for rank and file Americans the more they will remember Luigi. And that’s when you get copycats…

Exactly! So we throw him in a for-profit prison, where he is essentially a caged animal made to fight with the other caged animals. After a decade or two we put him out on parole with no marketable skills and a felony conviction to ensure nobody will hire him.

Then we act confused about why recidivism rates are high.

Oh for sure I agree.
I was just trying to point out the hypocrisy of jailing the gangbanger or letting him go versus throwing the book at Luigi and trying to execute him.

So riddle me this. Inner City, poor area, 2:00 a.m.
One gang member approaches another rival gang member, pulls out an illegally modified full auto pistol, dumps an entire 30 round magazine into him.
Does he get the death penalty?

This is true. But that’s also true of almost any execution method. IE, someone who would die of lethal injection would move in the restraints and try to make it hard to inject them.

Actually with nitrogen it’s not tricky at all.
Gas chambers use toxic cyanide gas which is extremely painful to breathe in. After the execution the corpse has to be decontaminated so it does not poison mortuary workers. This is not a good system.

The air you are breathing right now is about 80% nitrogen (and 20% oxygen). Nitrogen is all around us. You breathe it with every breath. It is harmless and non-toxic.
Execution by nitrogen does not kill the prisoner because they are breathing nitrogen. It kills the prisoner because breathing 100% nitrogen means they are not breathing any oxygen. Our bodies need a constant flow of oxygen to survive. Remove that, even by simply displacing all the oxygen with a harmless substitute, and the person dies.

Thus if done correctly, all you really need is a breathing mask. You can have other people right next to the prisoner during the execution and they will suffer no ill effect as long as the room is generally ventilated.

For somebody that actually wants to be dead, nitrogen is the most painless method I am aware of. The key is breathe 100% nitrogen little or no recycled breath or atmosphere air, and have this continue for several minutes. There is no choking sensation or pain. You just get light-headed and pass out and eventually die of hypoxia.

Look at this video. This guy is training to be a fighter pilot. They put you in a high altitude chamber to create hypoxic effects so you know what to recognize when you’re in the air. Fighter pilots breathe pure oxygen delivered through a series of regulators, gang load your regulator means manually select maximum flow rate on all regulators. So the point of this training is to recognize when you get hypoxic so you can crank up your oxygen.
Point is though, that guy isn’t suffering. He’s having a blast. He will keep holding up the wrong card and calling it four of spades all day. But that is what happens when the brain is starved of oxygen. If they reduce the oxygen level even farther in that chamber he would pass out, high enough and he would eventually die from it. Breathing 100% nitrogen at sea level does the exact same thing.

One assisted suicide group built a sort of death pod around this concept. I’m sure you can find it on Google. But the basic concept is it’s an enclosure and when you push a button on the inside, a liquid nitrogen tank in the base starts delivering gaseous nitrogen to the pod in enough quantity to push away any CO2 you exhale. They put a ton of research into it, like it has safety interlocks and override switches and I think it can even play music.

For whatever it’s worth, I hope you never have reason to make use of this information. I believe all life is precious.
But I also think that for somebody with a degenerative disease who’s quality of life is going downhill who absolutely 100% is not going to get better, I think the option of choosing to die with dignity rather than suffer for a few more years in an expensive hospital in constant pain is something that should be available. I think that’s a very personal decision and there’s nobody on the fucking planet who has any right to make it for anyone other than themself.

There’s two things going on here.
As a pilot, I’m familiar with hypoxia and how it works. I or pretty much any other pilot could very quickly write a completely bulletproof execution protocol that would guarantee a 100% painless death every time. It would involve a non-rebreathing 100% nitrogen mask so every lungful taken is 100% fresh nitrogen. In this mode, you just get drowsy and euphoric and pass out with no physical pain.

If they ask me to write it, I don’t care if they offer a million dollars I wouldn’t do it. I think the death penalty is barbaric and the way we have applied it is even worse, given how there are numerous instances of people executed despite evidence they were innocent being blocked by court procedure and prosecutors. I’m not saying there aren’t people the world is better off without, there absolutely are. But if we are going to kill people, we need to be absolutely 100% totally fucking sure beyond any doubt regardless of procedure. So I will not support the death penalty.

And that brings us to the two issues.
First is that very few people who actually understand how to do it have any interest in writing good execution protocol. Thus a lot of the protocols are written by people without understanding of human physiology. And quite frankly, I would rather that be the case, if only so it is easier to challenge capital punishment.

Second, is that I think some of the people who write these protocols actually want to cause suffering. I say I’m a pilot so I have understanding of hypoxia, but none of my knowledge is unique or difficult to obtain. A quick Google for ‘painless death nitrogen’ would tell you everything you need to know.
So when I hear that the condemned is breathing his own CO2 from a bag, I conclude that either whoever wrote the protocol doesn’t have Google, or they are intentionally writing a protocol that will look good on paper but cause suffering in reality. Or the protocol is being implemented in such a way to cause suffering, for example if the nitrogen flow is not enough. An executioner could easily prolong suffering by simply using less nitrogen, causing the prisoner to breathe CO2 and thus feel panic reaction.

But I think that further illustrates why the death penalty is a bad idea. The fact that the entire stack from prison guard up to Governor isn’t 100% focused on a humane death sense to me we need to clean our own house before we start burning others.

And this is why people are pissed at Democrats.

Democrats are apparently annoyed that constituents are writing demanding they act like an opposition party, aka FUCKING EXERCISE THE FUCKING POWER YOU WERE VOTED IN TO WIELD. They act like they are powerless to stop Trump and they have press conferences talking about how it’s red alert scenario and then they GO ON TO VOTE FOR THE VERY THINGS THEY ARE SOUNDING THE ALARM ABOUT.

If this truly is a red alert situation as another Connecticut Congressperson called it, then stop voting for this shit! Throw a wrench into the works, refuse to confirm anybody, make use of the shitty procedural filibuster and grind things to a halt.

Because if you are voting in favor of any of this you don’t get to fucking complain.

It’s frustrating that so many people downvote this sort of thing rather than considering it. It’s like if you say anything at all other than TRUMP NAZI ELON NAZI REPUBLICAN NAZI ALL BAD you are obviously wrong and fuck you.

Trump may be an asshole. He may be a horrible president. But during the campaign he promised to hack and slash away at the federal government, and that’s exactly what he’s doing. It may be a bad idea, it may cause a ton of its own problems, but he is doing exactly what he promised his voters.

Democrats need to learn some hard truths from this. Specifically, that while life may be great up in the ivory tower, the people on the street are hurting. The people on the street are angry that their struggle has been ignored and marginalized for so long. And when people with two incomes are struggling to afford groceries, they will always vote for the guy who says ‘there’s a problem and I want to fix it’ over the person who says ‘everything’s peachy’.

That doesn’t make them racist or sexist or Nazi. It makes them desperate.

Not asking for instruction on the issue, only clarification on your assertion that I don’t understand.

For example, if you argued that video games cause violence, I could say ‘you obviously don’t understand the issue, specifically, the sort of attitude players take toward the game. Nobody plays like ‘yeah I wish I could do this IRL’, rather, it’s just a game and there’s friendly banter between both teams.’ I don’t have to write a page on video game culture or statistics to do that.

Saying ‘you don’t get it’ on a huge broad subject while offering zero detail on what specifically I don’t get or even a counterpoint is lazy debating. If you think I’m wrong, explain why I’m wrong. Otherwise you are just a low effort shitpost that contributes nothing to the discourse. Do better.

Your entire premise is that they are happy taking shit pay and no benefits. And that’s just not true. They’re forced to do that because they have no negotiating power when their employer can just have them deported.

We agree they have zero negotiating power when they’re under threat of deportation.
I don’t think they’re ‘happy with shit’ but I also don’t think they’re as likely to demand more as an American. And if they don’t speak the language, they’re less likely to GET more as they can’t negotiate on equal footing.

I expect the government to do its job. But as an example forget Latin America, let’s say a person comes to the US and they’re skilled but they only speak Tagalog. Do you think they can negotiate as effectively as a native speaker?

I have no problem with the migrant, and I’ve no intent to dismiss facts. I did NOT mean that as an ad hominem attack (attack the person rather than the idea). I only meant to point out that your ideas sound nice but run into trouble in the real world.
Expecting government to stand up for people who won’t stand up for themselves (because even marginalized they’re still light years better off and they don’t want to risk that) isn’t a solution, it doesn’t work.

At the end of the day it’s not a story of two groups, it’s a story of what we’re willing to tolerate. … the reality is a large minority will work in minimum wage their entire lives.

And that’s exactly my point. An awful lot more immigrants will tolerate working minimum wage their whole lives. That’s not a dig at the migrant- I have great respect for them. But there’s a culture thing at work. That’s not a dig at any of their culture either, it’s a recognition of the fact that there’s differences. And the simple fact that the migrant who comes here and can let his daughter walk to school without her getting raped on the way isn’t likely to rock the boat too hard. He won’t say ‘pay me $30/hr or I quit’ knowing that if he gets fired that could mean having to go back home where his daughter will get raped on the way to school. I don’t blame the migrant for that- if I was in that situation I’d feel the exact same way. I’d keep my head down and I’d work hard and I’d try to make sure my kid gets good grades so they can have a chance at better. I think most decent parents would.

Because there’s only 11 million undocumented immigrants in a country of about 200 million working adults. That fraction of the working age population isn’t depressing anything.

If it was spread out equally among all industries, it’d make zero difference. It’s not. For the most part, you don’t see undocumented migrants becoming doctors, lawyers, investment bankers, computer engineers, etc. The effect is concentrated in blue collar jobs.

As you say, it’s a story of what we’re each willing to tolerate. And if you have a nation where the laws of supply and demand govern prevailing wages and working conditions, a large group of people who will tolerate an awful lot DOES make an impact.

Where we agree- I 100% agree that we need labor regs to make things better for everybody. Companies should not be allowed to mistreat workers and that IS a legal problem not an immigration problem.
I also believe (and I suspect you would agree) that for someone who wants to become an American- not just come to the country and work, but adopt an American way of life and become a citizen- there should be a clear, obvious, accessible path to citizenship.

Those 11 million people, like I said above those are some of the hardest working mofos on American soil, citizen or not. My problem with them isn’t that they’re here, it’s that they’re not being paid more. If they competed in the labor market on an EQUAL footing, as CITIZENS who fully understand and will stand up for their rights, most of them could easily command a high hourly wage due to high work ethic. I would LOVE to make that happen. I’m open to any way to do it. But if you just give someone a green card or a citizenship and say ‘congrats you’re an American’, you aren’t changing the culture, the mindset, the understanding of their rights and determination to stand up for those rights, And thus nothing will change.

That’s why I say I want an accessible process for such a person to become an American. If they want to truly learn about the country, and that means learning about their rights, take a place on equal footing with other Americans, if they choose us and they’re willing to follow the laws and pay their taxes then I don’t believe it’s the American way to slam the door in their face.

“Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free.” That’s carved in stone beneath the Statue of Liberty. Those words aren’t lost on me (although I suspect they are lost on a lot of modern day ‘patriots’).

But part of that means actually choosing to be American. I think learning English should be a big part of that-- not because I have a problem with ‘press one for English, para espanol marque dos’ on the phone menu. But because if you don’t speak the native language, then you can’t compete in any sort of negotiation on the same footing as an American native.

If you CAN do that (and for many, I’m not sure you can) the result is the immigrant now has the security of citizenship, knows that getting fired doesn’t mean his daughter gets raped, and hopefully you can instill in him the kind of attitude and culture to DEMAND better of his employer. As far as I’m concerned that’s just as effective as deporting him, because either way the underclass is removed from the labor pool. And a few million more Freedom-loving Americans won’t make much difference either way.
I just don’t know how to make that happen.

I’m open to any thoughts you may have.

Depends on where you live. Not necessarily poverty but if both parents work at that rate you could hit lower middle class in some areas. But you are right in most urban or suburb places it wouldn’t cut it.

I say this with respect- but that’s a bit of an ‘ivory tower intellectual’ position that doesn’t consider how things work in the real world.

I’m not just talking about ABUSE, which DoL should prevent. I’m talking about personal drive and demand of upward mobility.

For example- let’s say you have a company committed to following the rules, who will pay what the market demands and treats workers with respect. You have two candidates for a job. One is an immigrant- lives in a lower end neighborhood, but is thrilled he can feed his family ‘only’ working 60 hours a week and his daughter can walk to school without being abducted and raped. He’ll do the job as long as it’s offered for $10/hr and be thrilled at that. The other is an American who wants upward mobility, they want to do this job for 1-3 years max before being promoted to something bigger, and if he doesn’t get promotion he will leave.
There’s no abuse and nothing illegal happening here. Just supply and demand.

If you’re the corporation, which person do you hire?
Almost every company I know would hire the immigrant, because he’ll work hard, he’s thankful to have the job, his lower-middle-class lifestyle is better than what he had before so he has no need to demand more.
But if the immigrant isn’t there, they’ll have to hire the other guy, have to pay him more, have to provide promotion opportunities or train new workers when he finds something better.

There’s nothing for department of labor to do there, because there’s no violations happening. This isn’t a legal problem. It’s a socioeconomic one. No government agency can force the immigrant to demand higher wages, or force the company to pay above minimum wage.
(Minimum wage should probably be $10-$15 today, but that’s a separate issue).

And that’s all without the macro economic point of view that points out having more consumers in your country means more economic activity which means more jobs.

That only holds if those consumers have disposable income. And those consumers only have disposable income if they’re demanding wages high enough to afford luxuries.
If you have workers who will settle for very low wages, that depresses wages across the board. That means less disposable income for everyone, and can mean overall LESS economic activity because wages will decrease, consumer spending will drop, and money will accumulate as profits for large companies that reap higher profits from overall depressed wages (sound familiar?). I’m not blaming immigrants for that (I blame Congress and the absurdly low minimum wage) but the point stands.

Bottom line- if you have two groups of people, one says ‘I’m happy with what I get’ the other says ‘I want more’, more of the first group means less wages for both groups. Supply and demand.

You’re very likely right. I’m certainly not going to stand up and claim Trump is pure as driven snow. Or at the very least, that’s a part of it, for many of the people who push such a policy.

I think we’d all agree whoever gave the order to have ICE agents dress up in SWAT gear and go door to door wasn’t thinking about humanity.

hahaha I can see the appeal of a free ticket to Dublin and $250 to spend when you get there…

But no you wouldn’t qualify as you’re a citizen (born in the USA).

For many, I agree. That’s also the problem with this sort of policy, it makes no distinction between a migrant poor worker who picks tomatoes or whatever for barely minimum wage and someone who settles in, starts a business, etc.

Deport immigrants with DUIs and violent or financial felony convictions. Beef up the department of labor and go after companies paying people less than minimum wage.

Agree 100% on all.

Then it’s not a matter of jobs or services or crime.

I’m not 100% sure. There’s an element of legitimacy to the policy against ‘economic migrants’, I don’t know how big but there’s an element.
Let’s say you have a difficult and strenuous job. And let’s say you have two candidates- a born and raised American, and a Latin American immigrant. If the immigrant has better quality of life here on a minimum wage job than in their home country, they’re less likely to demand higher wages or better working conditions because from their POV they’ve already got ‘better’. And that DOES affect the American- if the immigrant will do the job for $8/hr flat and be happy living in a poor neighborhood (because at least there’s no cartels like south of the border), but the American wants $12/hr and health benefits, merely having the immigrant there as an option affects the salary the American can get. Because if you remove the immigrant the company will HAVE to raise the wage to $12/hr and offer health benefits. Otherwise the company will hire only immigrants and will keep the wage low.

I recognize this is a generalization and you can’t paint all of ANY people with the same brush. You can also flip it around and say forcing the company to hire Americans at the higher wages will increase costs and decrease quality-- say what you want about Latin American immigrants but in most cases I’ve seen they’re pretty much the hardest working mofos around. Thus, having some competition provides incentive for the Americans to work harder.

The problem is, it’s VERY hard to have any sort of real discussion on the subject without it being derailed either by accusations of xenophobia or actual xenophobia / racism.

That’s the problem- I’m pretty sure you’re right. Either that or whoever got the instructions to get rid of undocumented immigrants has no cleverness at all and pushed the only button they can think of (send in jack booted thugs).

Trump may or may not be ignorant but his words fan the flames of racism and xenophobia. And while I think it’s possible he’s just ignorant, for someone in his position ignorance is no excuse. As President, as a commander, like any other commander he’s responsible for the actions of his subordinates when they are following his orders. He doesn’t get the luxury of not knowing, not understanding, not being aware of what his orders end up doing.