It just makes me so infuriatingly upset how right you were on just about all of it, btw. It was like watching a slow motion train wreck to watch them snatch defeat from the jaws of victory.

Who cares what they think, USA Today? It’s not relevant because they never act on it. They’re just taking up space.

Every time

I can see where you’re coming from on the whole matter of scale, yeah. It does broaden the subject’s surface area a lot, and there’s no way to really say you have a control group at that point. So, I think you’re right that the variables in a national coalition are possibly too blurry for a direct mapping. Maybe?

I guess I’d say that I can still see the mapping holding, but I suppose it’s just in an aspirational sense. The puzzle’s framing does hold pretty well for coalition negotiation w/ representation, and so it seems to me like that’s a big thing missing here and that’s a big point in your favor.

I think, given cohesive, known/defined members in a coalition, even if they’re rough models, you get some utility out of the dilemma.

But, I don’t think we have that kind of self-aware cohesion, do we?

I think in any case it kind of feels like, to me, your point is just illustrating how badly the folks in charge botched stuff. It’s exhausting, honestly. It’s always been very nebulous who we are and what we’re striving to do, but right now we don’t even have those rough models to understand our own coalition. No wonder we can’t get anything done.

It’s a varying application. It usually models opposing groups during diplomatic tensions, but it can also apply to groups within coalitions who face the same problem together but disagree how the coalition should proceed.

In the process of applying things, you have to consider the outcomes and think of the prisoners as “trapped” by the circumstances of the decision they face. Trapped here means that inaction triggers consequences, so it explicitly models inaction as a choice facing the circumstance.

Usually during negotiation that follows this kind of pattern, the prisoner’s dilemma is applied to figure out the best way to articulate the circumstances at hand and the choices everyone has. It’s a way to connect the cause and effect of everything to everyone in the negotiation, and to illustrate how their actions flow into those consequences, in a way that frames everything as less a “you vs me”, and more of an “us vs the problem”.

And that’s where the logic part comes into play: here it works as a mechanic to introduce cause and effect group logic to humans, and connect the notion of it all to their emotional needs. It helps demonstrate that negotiation and compromise are hard but valuable, logically and emotionally.

If you haven’t read it, “Getting to Yes” is fantastic. I highly recommend it, and although it doesn’t speak about the dilemma directly, the entire thing is about navigating compromise tactically in situations where everyone may be very correct, yet still have a hard time with each other.

The thing about the dilemma is that you need to realize that the prisoners are rational, feeling people. They have good reasons to do what they do, often enough. Often their goals are good ones, compassionate ones.

They aren’t trying to scheme or sabotage one another. But they wind up doing that, because the only success condition is mutual cooperation.

That didn’t happen for us, and the outcome is boolean, pass or fail. Any move except sticking to the coalition and acting to cooperate would have doomed the effort completely, and we didn’t do that. So, here we are.

The vote wasn’t between genocide and genocide lite. It was between genocide lite and genocide, plus additional genocides, some domestic, plus economic sabotage, plus the emergence of a new evangelical southern Baptist military regime.

I don’t think that narrowing the scope of the voting gap to just you is helpful, so I don’t want to use this as a moment to level scorn. I just want to be very clear that the premise you presented is wrong. Very wrong

Yes it is and it’s such a good example of logic that its archetype is now a formal part of game theory in the prisoner’s dilemma. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prisoner's_dilemma

This is most of it. And there’s obviously some sock puppet stuff too, but the Lemmy community is so small they probably never targeted it. But mostly it’s because getting coalitions to infight has always benefited the people who took power a few weeks ago. Now they have nothing more to gain by promoting it and everything to lose by making people think it’s still a problem. So…

I recognize what you’re saying but I’m done having this particular conversation, you know? I’m not saying you’re wrong if we fight, etc., or anything like that. I’m just saying I guess I’m comfortable with the futility and I don’t think it’s going to shut me up on this one.

Prison.

Just before he fled and hid like the chickenshit jabroni he is, too

Glad we’re talking about what we all think should die next, Musk. Thanks for bringing it up. Glad you’ve said something. Since we’re talking about orgs that need to die, criminal ones, let’s start with yours.

Amen. They have no grasp of what’s going on. They’re convinced that some West Wing witticism is going to dunk so hard on a fascist reader that it’ll turn the tide. When it inevitably does nothing at all, they’ll think, “Oh well I did what I could” with no self awareness that they did nothing at all.

Fuck these headlines. Man. We’ve clickbaited ourselves into this mess and these brunch party editors think that means we can clickbait ourselves out. Hell no. It’s time to put up or shut up.

The world will be smart to tariff in return only those goods that Trump supporters peddle. This happened last time with bourbon, and it cratered corn producers and we wound up bailing out Agriculture. They made the country pay for the tariffs and our deficit zoomed. It made Trump scramble for months to try and fix the damage. He’s even more vulnerable to reprisal like that now that he relies on the oligarchs to keep prevalence, all the world has to do is make Amazon, FB, and Tesla / Twitter suffer

Lives, almost certainly.

Ah yeah, I remember watching it happen. I’m sorry that it happened there, and now here as well. We really are just an incredibly gullible species.

Which country?

The good news is these segregationists have no hoods on. It isn’t much but it’s something to remember. Ken Paxton, Klan attorney.