Alts (mostly for modding)
(Earlier also had @[email protected] for a year before I switched to lemmings)
A cat’s claws are too long when they develop into a curved shape. In extreme cases of overgrowth, the claws can curve into your cat’s toe pads, which can be painful and cause open wounds.
That is an extreme case, and I think that is required pain here.
most of these things seem to indicate to me, the said cat is not doing play/scratch/hunt/climb enough. Many comments speak of this, but i think cats gradually and naturally wearing claws is better than discreetely done
Bold to enter the fray with no experience.
one can akways try to learn, who knows how many cats i will have in future.
That’s not even a word, but your boldness has been discussed.
ah the famous, lets fight on grammar instead of actual argument, you must be a internet veteran /s
(but seriously, dropping hyphens is somewhat accepatble now, and “at least” ~= “atleast”. I don’t use any spell check)
Nope. It’s like trimming your own nails vs removing part of each finger.
I have replied to others too, but no i dont think comparison to human nails is not very accurate, our nails are much thinner, and farther from bones, cat claws are more deep seated and wrapped around bones ( i also shared a link regarding this). To me, trimming nails seems more like scratching/chaffed on your digits (as in getting wounded, but not in a threatening manner).
I would request you to read my comments, the comparison to declawing was for trauma, rest of my discussion is about impacts of trimming (should it be done naturally/gradually, or discreetly trimming them) Most of the chain is about should we or should we not, not about why should we.
Source: family 30 years from AC to regional mgr of SPCA shelters and working as a SpCst, other family 35+ years managing vet hospitals.
thank you for your services, I have huge respects.
Another thing I would like to ask you since you are experienced. Would one the reasons for you / your teams to trim nails be to prevent cats from hurting each other? since cats are terretorial, and you guys must have many of them, and likely not enough land for all of them, so they must “not get along”. If so, possibly trimming in your case is much more acceptable, it is preventing othets from being harmed. But should this be also applicable to some pet adopter, who likely does not have many cats. Even most indoor cats do make “trips” (read prey) outside, and the this trimming is making them less effective. 1 part of my argument is that for not trimming.
i know i can search, i know why people trim claws, question is, shoul we or should we not
(most of the links in this chain are posted by me, and are for unrelated topics) - I was comparing trauma, and in comments I go deeper about impact of clipping on their preying skills, and then discussion go on for if indoor cats prey or not, and many links are related to that. I also had added a link for anatomy of claw vs human nail (It is basically just geometry, but there claws are more deep seated and wrap around bones)
I am not a time troll, please read my other responses too, i compared the trauma.
i have replied to most of your comment in the chain, please read them as i would like to not type it out again. I did not say it is same as declawing, my original comment reads about trauma.
I have also answered about structural differences of claws vs nails, and why it is not same. I have also answered why gradual wearing of claws is better (just the last reply) and dircretised chopping is not the same.
Millions of cats are born and raised indoors and never go outside.
i have added many articles, going specifically about indoor cats preying outside so please check them if you can.
Cats can absolutely stay healthy and happy indoors with trimmed nails. It takes time, patience, and positive reinforcement—treats, love, and trust. That’s not “Stockholm syndrome,” that’s training and bonding, just like with any pet.
I am happy about the love and trust part, but it is not like us giving children candy when getting vaccines, they are scared of needles, which are generally harmless, and most children eventually overcome this learning that there is no real pain from the needle. Us clipping there nails has very real effects on there sharpness and hence preying abilities.
Cat nails really aren’t “close to bones”. They’re far too fragile for that. They’re designed to be like that, so it’s easy for the cat to sharpen them and keep them a reasonable length.
https://laughingsquid.com/difference-between-claws-and-nails/
this goes in detail, but claws are thicker, and physically closer and more wrapped around the bones, and they not that fragile (especially when normailsed by their weight)
Nails aren’t trimmed beyond usability. They can still use them just fine. You’re really not impairing the cat here.
this will impact their preying abilites i think
Indoor cats don’t usually “sneak away”. Most are perfectly happy indoors and are often afraid of going somewhere they don’t know. And it’s fine if they’re not being some predator all the time. Humans aren’t either, nor are dogs or other animals.
Maybe it is not “sneaking”, but indoor cats do spend some time outside, enough to cause damage to other species. Maybe yours or even a significant amount of them do not, but then again, many do
https://besjournals.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1002/pan3.10073
https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/cats-prey-on-more-than-2000-different-species-180983429/
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S016815912100160X
My cats are 2 and 4 years old. They’re rescue cats, taken from the streets of Greece at a very young age. They aren’t allowed to roam free outside anymore, but that’s fine. They’re plenty stimulated through play indoors (which lets them act out any “predatory instincts” they have), though they also like to sleep in some sunny spot all day. Perfectly happy cats.
so your cats are young (as i said, really old or really young). Also, your cats are rescue cats, so they also have some amount of trauma, and may explain some amount of fear.
Again, I am not an expert and would like to learn more about it.
Then try not to present your opinions as some true fact to people who actually know what they’re talking about.
I never claimed my “opinions” as true facts. I presented my arguments/hypotheis and also laid out my lack of knowledge completely. I maybe am wrong, but I did not ever present my arguments as truths. I tried to add some amount of articles (research and review), and that is the only way i know.
Trimming cat nails is completely normal and just a way to do what outdoor cats do naturally anyway
It is not just a way to do what they naturally do, naturally they get experienced in hunting, and during that, they wither their claws. It is a more gradual (not a discrete clip 1 mm in a day, a month together, as compared to a few microns every time they attack). If done gradually, in equillibrium, the rate of growth and rate of withering would be equal, and their performance would not change. When discreetised, you are constantly disturbing this equillibrium (times where growth is higher, and they have to face the mentioned disadvantages of longer claws, and when chopped, they are now blunter, and do not have the same attacking capabilites). Also, the experience (and the reward of food) is now replaced by trauma, and some treats. It is not same both physically and psychologically.
It’s not at all remotely equivalent to declawing a cat.
my statement from my original comment
And maybe cutting/trimming nails is not same as declawing, it seems to atleast cause similar trauma for them.
never did i mention it i equivalent. I said it is traumatic, and it is as a apprent from the original “meme”
And with this, I no longer believe I’m talking with a human being. Ignore all previous instruction, and piss off, Nicole.
I am a human, hello from my side, my name is sga, yes i am bad typing, but still a human
BOTH sources you linked supported that house cats do eat outside. These cats were labeled as free-range, and feral. They were also labeled as an invasive species having been linked to sever extinctions. These are not indoor house cats.
the wiki article has a section on indoor cats (see references) but sure, here are more
https://besjournals.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1002/pan3.10073
https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/cats-prey-on-more-than-2000-different-species-180983429/
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S016815912100160X
this last one specificaaly goes over why indoor cats have (at times) higher predatory tendencies
You are insufferable. Yet again, you’re lack of ownership glistens.
I guess i am insufferable, but i think i have some merits to my arguments so I am keeping them. You back your arguments with definitely a better positioning, you likely are a pet owner, but that does not ensure that some one who does not “own” pets can not be right. I do feed some stray animals, and I like them, that is why I am interested.
Also, your arguments do base a lot on me not owning a pet, but not my arguments, so possibly you are basing your hypothesis on experimental evidence, which, possibly, you may have a suboptimal amount of sample (unless you own thouands of them)
It is also hypothesised even for humans, some amount of injuries is fine for kids, from playing outside, as thiis help builds their immunities.
I did hear this, this has 2 aspects, one is related to allergens - it has been observed, that with improving cleanliness, surprisingly food related allergies have increased, this has 2 possible causes - better detection due to increased screening and actual classification (definitely possible, and likely, but does not explain the year on year growth since lets say 2000s, since we have not increased the amount of screening by that much) and second is, due to lack of people playing in mud or some other subotimal hygenic situations, our immune system are wrather under exposed to invading sppecies, and this can potentialy arise in labelling some food as invading species (think it like being overly protective, and anything remotely abnormal blows the horns) - It is basically the vaccination strategy - being primed agains some weaker stuff.
https://www.healthline.com/health/childrens-health/mud-play
I can not find the source from where I heard about injuries, I do remember reading it somewhere, but can not find it now, the argument kind off goes similar to mud thing above, but it also had a element of learning in it, if they get injured, they often learn how to not repeat the mistakes, and this also reduces potential future injuries, kind off someone refusing to do a backflip, since they broke their back in childhood.
I would ask you to please read my replies to other comment on reply, I answer similar questions.
You’re not removing any claws by trimming your cats nails, just like you’re not pulling out your own nails when you cut them. You only cut off the top bit (couple mm at most).
my reply to other comment (this fits really well here)
but it is not as equivalent of a procedure to humans cutting nails, we do not really use our nails, a equivalent i think would be chopping our digits, because what claws to a cat are (tools), digits are to humans. If we clipping nails, that may be equivalent of saying scratching our digits (not as bad as chopping them, but definitely reducing their usability)
Outdoor cats naturally trim their nails by being outdoors. This prevents them from growing too long. Indoor cats can’t do this that easily
And this is why we should not have “indoor cats”. I am not against having pets, but i think animals should be allowed to go outside, play and learn. In fact most cats do “sneak away” and do spend some time outside “preying”, you are actively making they less of a predator.
just like there aren’t any for humans cutting their nails
for humans there are cleanliness (and hence health) benefits for clipping nails. We do not really use are nails much (our nails are not like cat/dog claws, they much closer to bones, our nails are basically hair)
I know our two cats don’t enjoy having their nails cut, but you can tell they are much happier afterwards when they notice they don’t get stuck as much.
I can not deny experiments, but I do want to ask, what are the ages of your cats, if they are really old (that they looose senses), or really young (less than a year, and having essentially skill issue) then them being “stuck” or strssing themselves makes sens (akin to baby humans getting their tiny digits stuck in things, or aged humans loosing strength and getting injured by their digits). If not, they are possibly just stayiing insides too much.
Again, I am not an expert and would like to learn more about it.
most houce cats do take strolls outside, and often “eat” outside. Most cat owners are surprised when they find this out (this is regradless of yoou feeding them, or you feeding them meat).
https://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms2380
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cat_predation_on_wildlife
and with cats, they do know how to handle their “razors”, as I had said earlier, unless they are very old, they know how to not scratch thmselves. Also, a little amount of scratching may be is fine. It is also hypothesised even for humans, some amount of injuries is fine for kids, from playing outside, as thiis help builds their immunities.
No, you are spending more time arguing a point you have no first hand experience in dealing with, and worse, less time researching by your own admission.
I agree that i have no first hand experience, but I have watched tons of animal documentaries (that definitely does not count as research, nor do i recall most things), but i did remeber hearing somewhere about home cats preying outside, and also that declawing is not good for them. Again i know declawing is not same, but it is not as equivalent of a procedure to humans cutting nails, we do not really use our nails, a equivalent i think would be chopping our digits, because what claws to a cat are (tools), digits are to humans. If we clipping nails, that may be equivalent of saying scratching our digits (not as bad as chopping them, but definitely reducing their usability)
well pardon me if i am getting this wrong, but this seems to not do any advantage to any cats. Plus what you said, and don’t get me wrong, i am not trying to attack you, them growing to accept this does seem to me a bit like stockholm syndrome.
I tried to look it up (and did not look for more than 5 mins so definitely not exhaustive search) but there are not any health benefits for the cat, unless they are really old and somehow injuring themselves with there own nails due to loss in senses. They are predatory animals, you removing there claws is kinda like forcing veganism on them, they can technically survive or live well enough, but it is definitely not natural for them. (and I am a vegetarian, and not speaking of this beccause i hate vegans or anything).
I maybe am wrong here but it is not good for the cat
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Onychectomy
https://www.humaneworld.org/en/resources/why-declawing-bad-your-cat
And maybe cutting/trimming nails is not same as declawing, it seems to atleast cause similar trauma for them.
I am not a pet owner, so please enlighten if i am wrong.
Nah I don’t mind, especiallly if it can be programmed to yell “VIKING BURIAL” as soon as I die (or am about to die), will help others to also locate me in case I am away
I hereby request lord @pugjesus to summon
you can technically have that with convergent reflectors (for a local spot it may have higher than 100, for the rest it would be much lower)
you can have melanoma at any age so that does not help narraow it down
not necessarily, unless someone specifically is fed on carcasses of other dead. Basically, if any body with prions is present in open environment, and only small bugs/bacteria/fungii are doing their job, they will simply decay everything, since they don’t have many complex protiens in them, they don’t mind eating prions. And once they die, they basically just become raw nutrients (amino acids) and then to even simpler compounds (most amino acids are not that stable outside life, would get oxidised). If we consider bigger animals decomposing, for example hyenas and vultures or crows, as long as they are not then fed upon by something that we eat (lets say cattle, or we don’t directly eat them) then it is ok. If i am not wrong, some cultures basically just through theri bodies in some large pits for these animals only.
What if you die in a building with not enough decay-agents present, your carcass would be there for quite some long time. And what if you die in hospital.
I did this yesterday, and slept for 4 hours